Larry B & Dannielynn -- Swingers

2356. 2354.
I believe that person with their name on the red BDK label will surely be at the top of the list of the John Does also.

I do not understand why FS was not called as a witness for the Defense in CA? Even if it would be as a hostile witness. It would seem that would be the first thing to do in showing the material that the Prosecution has is not legally obtained according to the law. I always had thought if evidence was not obtained properly it could not come into the Court.


Posted at 10:24AM on Oct 18th 2009 by jm

I, too, always believed that illegally obtained evidence is not admissible in a court of law. So, far, Renee Rose has not introduced anything from those pc's...the judge stopped her with the Dr.E photo and I'm not sure about the internet video of Dr. Kapoor, because I saw it on TMZ long ago. That wasn't the reason he gave for stopping her though--the judge may not even know about all this underhanded broken chain of evidence and publicity from the dissemination of all the photos.

But, SANTIAGO, surely knows--and the court order to unseal all the search warrants and affidavits was issued--??? I can't tell, it appears it was May 9, 2007. But we do know that it was released/leaked to the tabloids just before the prelim was about to take place on the first date set, Oct. 3rd. Those are stamped August 25, 2009.

I can think straight a lot better with facts, not with gossip. The gossip obfuscates the facts and distracts, thus promoting speculation and before you know it--nobody cares about the facts. The only thing that endures is the gossip, facts are not ingested, doled out subliminally, or you have to read between the lines, and so confusing the hope is most of us will give it up and succumb to the gossip and remember only that. In other words FACTS are obliterated in lieu of gossip, speculation until the latter becomes the truth. LOL. Deconstructionism.

Shelley may be on the prosecution witness list--I have always thought so, and still do. Before they call him though, they have to weigh what the cross will reveal. It's a matter of point and counterpoint--Clark is on the prosecution witness list, so he can be called by the defense as a hostile witness.

I hate to say this, but the truth is I don't see where Larry B was a 'hostile' witness for the prosecution. He sure talked a lot, ad hominem stuff--and we have no way of knowing how much the prosecution put him through his paces, led him--or how much he was coached.

Posted at 10:37AM on Oct 18th 2009 by Howard Supporter

2357. 2355.
I believe that person with their name on the red BDK label will surely be at the top of the list of the John Does also.

I do not understand why FS was not called as a witness for the Defense in CA? Even if it would be as a hostile witness. It would seem that would be the first thing to do in showing the material that the Prosecution has is not legally obtained according to the law. I always had thought if evidence was not obtained properly it could not come into the Court.


Posted at 10:24AM on Oct 18th 2009 by jm

I wrote a long post and it went POOF!

Illegally obtained evidence can result in a mis-trial. Criminal cases are very strict on the law and appellate lawyers watch and listen to every word to keep track of judicial errors as to admissibility, etc.

I suppose you can get away with anything during a prelim...who knows? When was there ever a prelim like this that never offers real evidence?

I personally, would very much like to know how the CURES database records of controlled substances for ANS over a two-year period ties directly to the three defendants, and especially how there was a conspiracy by all three of them? They prescribed at different times in this period? I am open to facts--but not to hearsay and gossip. Actually, I am IMMUNE to it at this point. LOL

FS might be on the prosecution witness list--I would think so! He's one of the BIG PLAYERS, no? :-)

He could be called to introduce the clown video, right? Who cares if it's edited, stolen evidence--not the prosecution, not DOJ, not JB, not TEXAS.

Posted at 10:45AM on Oct 18th 2009 by Howard Supporter

2358. It is weird to me , this talk of the "TAKEN" computer. Seems many are more worried about if it was stolen , not what the content of the hard drive gave us.

Who could ever forget Anna on RILEY DAY ?

Posted at 10:52AM on Oct 18th 2009 by Trouble

2359. I personally, would very much like to know how the CURES database records of controlled substances for ANS over a two-year period ties directly to the three defendants, and especially how there was a conspiracy by all three of them? They prescribed at different times in this period? I am open to facts--but not to hearsay and gossip. Actually, I am IMMUNE to it at this point. LOL
...


Posted at 10:45AM on Oct 18th 2009 by Howard Supporter

The only thing I noticed when reading Santiagos outline of events (date/what med/quantity/etc.) from the database there was no mention of obvious related data. Such as what did the medical record say to correspond with that particular dose of med (ie. was ANS going out of town and rec'd two months and never picked up again for 2 months - as there were scenarios of missing a month of obtaining scripts right after obtaining two back to back)-- just one example. Or did one medication not work after a 3-day trial and the dose was upped or discontinued with a new med? There are so many possible scenarios to accompany each and every date/medicine/quantity/etc that the CURES database projects, that a simple rundown of the database is inaccurate to justify to use only its contents to justify criminal charges and quite possibly a subpoena. I would guess they would need something to obtain the medical records and use the CURES to suggest wrongdoing and obtain warrants?

Another thing I recall is Dr. Khris volunteering to assist with any investigation only to be blindsided with the search warrants(with WV giving out details of the raid and DC running to Cali - I think I remember that scenario in real time right here on TMZ!!)and the investigators not interviewing any of them!

The CURES database was obviously used to justify Dr. Kapoor but the quantities of all the other patients pulled were extremely different to ANS's prescriptions and yet through that justification using CURES are in a preliminary hearing pertaining to only one of the patients and pulling in the physician that began assisting after her son's death and the man that had been with her FIVE years prior to the beginning of the alleged conspiracy.

Money will never be shown as a motive. As dark as it may sound, look at ANS's income and exclusive contracts in the year before death and was she worth more alive than dead? They will never prove that money was a motive as both Larry and HKS took control of the media in which should have prevented a circus. But what did the media do that had no control? Used agendas and nobodies to fill their shows and create a drama that still hinders ANS's inner circle from moving on, outrageous lawsuits and litigation fees and requires constant protection of the innocent for survival. And they sit back and laugh? Or continue to create the drama?

Posted at 12:15PM on Oct 18th 2009 by Subpoenas & Cures

2360. I personally, would very much like to know how the CURES database records of controlled substances for ANS over a two-year period ties directly to the three defendants, and especially how there was a conspiracy by all three of them? They prescribed at different times in this period? I am open to facts--but not to hearsay and gossip. Actually, I am IMMUNE to it at this point. LOL
...


Posted at 10:45AM on Oct 18th 2009 by Howard Supporter

The only thing I noticed when reading Santiagos outline of events (date/what med/quantity/etc.) from the database there was no mention of obvious related data. Such as what did the medical record say to correspond with that particular dose of med (ie. was ANS going out of town and rec'd two months and never picked up again for 2 months - as there were scenarios of missing a month of obtaining scripts right after obtaining two back to back)-- just one example. Or did one medication not work after a 3-day trial and the dose was upped or discontinued with a new med? There are so many possible scenarios to accompany each and every date/medicine/quantity/etc that the CURES database projects, that a simple rundown of the database is inaccurate to justify to use only its contents to justify criminal charges and quite possibly a subpoena. I would guess they would need something to obtain the medical records and use the CURES to suggest wrongdoing and obtain warrants?

Another thing I recall is Dr. Khris volunteering to assist with any investigation only to be blindsided with the search warrants(with WV giving out details of the raid and DC running to Cali - I think I remember that scenario in real time right here on TMZ!!)and the investigators not interviewing any of them!

The CURES database was obviously used to justify Dr. Kapoor but the quantities of all the other patients pulled were extremely different to ANS's prescriptions and yet through that justification using CURES are in a preliminary hearing pertaining to only one of the patients and pulling in the physician that began assisting after her son's death and the man that had been with her FIVE years prior to the beginning of the alleged conspiracy.

Money will never be shown as a motive. As dark as it may sound, look at ANS's income and exclusive contracts in the year before death and was she worth more alive than dead? They will never prove that money was a motive as both Larry and HKS took control of the media in which should have prevented a circus. But what did the media do that had no control? Used agendas and nobodies to fill their shows and create a drama that still hinders ANS's inner circle from moving on, outrageous lawsuits and litigation fees and requires constant protection of the innocent for survival. And do they sit back and laugh? Or continue to create the drama?

The CURES database did not prove conspiracy, did not even prove abuse. For Kapoor it brought out several patients outlined that rec'd a multitude of narcotic scripts (without any medical history to accompany) and then only using one of those patients. It proved the one Dr Khris scenario which I myself think is kooky to use a false name of a lawyer that was on somewhere she worked I believe) the pharmacy used -- it was just a strange and illegal scenerio (BUT the only one pertaining to ANS) cant recall all the details right now. Use that to show Dr. Khris obtained a narcotic for ANS by a variety of misleading steps. That pulls them doctors in and the one common factor is ANS. Then you have HKS whom picked up the scripts for ANS (explains the handwriting analysis) and the ANS factor. There we have our Texas induced conspiracy to obtain scripts to a supposed addict. Who died with therapeutic amounts (except chloral hydrate), surrounded by medical personnel after Daniel passed at all times. None of the two doctors prescribing habits are related or occurred at the same time, they are using it as one stopped and one picked up and the common factor of HKS who simply picked up the scripts and most likely attended medical appointments with ANS. (Dr. Kapoor was said to make home visits and we know that to be the case with Dr. Khris) how dare a loved one sit in and make sure everything is OK, perhaps make sure their loved one is taking them appropriately and after seeing their loved one in pain upon their son's death make sure the doctors are doing everything in their power to help her.

A jury is not going to focus on ANS's death as the prosecution so badly wants. They will focus on the unbelievable heartache of losing a son so soon after giving birth to a daughter. Almost every member of a jury can relate to the unconditional love and the unimaginable pain one would have to go through to bury one of their children and wake up to find him dead in your arms. And every one in that jury would be begging for peace within themselves and needing something to cope. And that is what brought so many people to this story when ANS died so shortly after her son's death as everyone knows that a piece of them would die if anything were to happen to their children. And most worried about an innocent baby being left without her mom.

All the BS of trashing ANS and anyone around her after that time will only be seen for the sc..um that they are for increasing her pain during that time and cold-hearted for suggesting that ANS and anyone else around her was not allowed to seek help for her pain, dismissing her needs and feelings.

As Virgie would say "Cuz of drugs..." and the boards have filled up with disdain for ANS's mother since the moment she began holding up the burial in Florida, badmouthing her daughter and continuing until this day. And a jury would follow in those footsteps.

Posted at 12:39PM on Oct 18th 2009 by Subpoenas & Cures

2361. "Illegally obtained evidence can result in a mis-trial. Criminal cases are very strict on the law and appellate lawyers
watch and listen to every word to keep track of judicial errors as to admissibility, etc."

Posted at 10:45AM on Oct 18th 2009 by Howard Supporter



Isn't it "illegally obtained evidence" if the police were the ones to obtain it by theft or illegal search and seizure?

If a private citizen knew that there was illegal activity on those hard drives and took them to preserve the evidence, how is that not admissible?

Also, the California authorities were not aware of the "alleged" theft when it occurred.
Ford Shelley turned that evidence over to the police in SC.
The SC PD turned it over to the Seminole PD and the California authorities obtained it from the Seminole PD 'after the fact'.

Not understanding why you are saying it was illegally obtained by California and not admissible.

Posted at 12:50PM on Oct 18th 2009 by Question

2362. Isn't it "illegally obtained evidence" if the police were the ones that obtained it by theft or illegal search and seizure?

Posted at 1:05PM on Oct 18th 2009 by Question

2363. I would guess they would need something to obtain the medical records and use the CURES to suggest wrongdoing and obtain warrants?

Posted at 12:39PM on Oct 18th 2009 by Subpoenas & Cures

I only got this far reading your post, and decided to jump in here and finish reading it after I post.

To be honest, I decided to go on a quest to ascertain the chain of evidence. I began with ANS computers which led me to the search warrants and affidavits which has now led me to actually reading them in full!

I am totally confused and had the same questions as you. I do believe Santiago and Doss did the CURES printout immediately after being assigned to the case on March 30th-and before they went to Florida. They did their legwork with the CA pharmacies.

I am assuming Santiago wanted to cross-reference anything from the computers as to shipping receipts of online pharmacies, etc with the CURES data base.

I can't recall where I read things--and have to back up and search my own files, i.e. I can't recall where I read when Santiago was asked at the prelim if Stern had been Mirandized and he replied 'NO' he waived it saying he had nothing to hide. But then is Santiago referring to his own interview with Howard or to the summary of the Florida investigators who interviewed Howard? I still don't know.

Anyway, I am now stuck reading the Return to Warrant docs from LA Superior Court records from late 2007 requesting sealings of affidavits. Reading these affidavits I am totally confused.

However, the Medical Board investigator was ordered two special masters who did the searches on the doctors and gave property receipts to the attorneys for Dr. Kapoor. I have yet to read anything much about Dr. E--and what I did read had to do with Santiago and the computers and what the nannies said about Dr. E.

In re-reading some of the overt acts, I was amazed to see that two of them (all I read) had to do with Dr. E. prescribing meds for ANS and then picking them up. Is THAT A CRIME? One brief mention of HKS and K. Walther sometimes picking up meds for ANS. IS THAT A CRIME? Sheesh!

If this goes poof, I will copy it and repost it later.

The point is that I think it is a MAJOR MISTAKE for any of us to try and 'match' events in the lives of ANS taken from the media to the CURES database printout.

I honestly do NOT think that is what Santiago has done. It makes little sense to me. I think the prosecution has tried to match the MEDICAL RECORDS of the patient(s) with the writing of the prescriptions.

I'm beginning to think that the ANS computers and hard drive, locked up in the Sheriff's Dept as 'property of Santiago' revealed very little in the way of 'Diversion Pharmacies' which is what Santiago was seeking...internet pharmacies that sell prescriptions cheaply and online.

I think what he got was a lot of garbage, since he specifically told the judge for the search warrants he only wanted to look at images, texts and IM's. If he ever did--I have yet to figure out what DOJ in Santa Fe Springs did with the pc's until they went to the Sheriff's Dept. He did state he TOOK them personally and drove them to Santa Fe Springs.

So, color me confused.

Posted at 1:22PM on Oct 18th 2009 by Howard Supporter

2364. 2356. 2355.
I believe that person with their name on the red BDK label will surely be at the top of the list of the John Does also.

I do not understand why FS was not called as a witness for the Defense in CA? Even if it would be as a hostile witness. It would seem that would be the first thing to do in showing the material that the Prosecution has is not legally obtained according to the law. I always had thought if evidence was not obtained properly it could not come into the Court.


Posted at 10:24AM on Oct 18th 2009 by jm


I do not believe the Defense has played any of their cards yet. At least in relation to a witness list. I would definitely think the Judge is aware by now that the materials used were stolen. Again with this being a preliminary they get to use things or not use things that might be allowed or not be allowed in a real trial. I can't imagine the discussion with Santiago about the Texas haters being left untouched, we just unfortunately got bits and pieces. It was interesting that a court watcher from RT's site stated that Santiago would sit for minutes not saying a word (having an answer?)? I, being somewhat bias lol, imagine those questions pertaining to the illegal evidence in his possession and/or how they obtained the computers vs warrants, affidavits, transfers, etc. If only someone would take in a recorder and download it in audio for us to hear the whole thing. Now that would be REALLY cool.

Posted at 1:39PM on Oct 18th 2009 by JMO

2365. Posted at 12:39PM on Oct 18th 2009 by Subpoenas & Cures

This is an excellent post that asks a lot of questions and I cannot answer any of them nor offer much in the way of opinion and speculation. I have done it, but am now drained of that mode and prefer the mode I am in now--which is confusing to say the least, which is the pursuit of the facts and nothing but the facts.

The affidavits written for search warrants of the medical records were written by Jon Genens for the Medical Board. Santiago has an attachment at the top of each doc ument saying the same thing--basically. It says he did NOT search anything 'pursuant to these orders.'

That, in itself, has served to confuse me.

The medical records of the Dr. Kapoor's other patients is a summmary by the medical consultant, Dr. Jill Klessig, which accompanies Genens' request for search warrants. She is the one analyzing Dr. K's 'treatment' of his patients and prescribing habits. She is only a consultant and teaches at UCLA I believe. It was simply used to gain search warrants for Dr. Kapoor. Just as the many felonies listed for the three defendants were listed to gain arrest warrants for Santiago.

DEA is not part of the LA County Sheriff's Dept. Neither is DOJ. DEA works with DOJ but DOJ is a SEPARATE and powerful agency connected federally.

That's about as far as I can go, and hope to stay with the facts only.

I have yet to see my post earlier that went poof. It was one of those posts I sometimes wish I had never written.

Posted at 1:40PM on Oct 18th 2009 by Howard Supporter

2366. 2358. Isn't it "illegally obtained evidence" if the police were the ones that obtained it by theft or illegal search and seizure?

Posted at 1:05PM on Oct 18th 2009 by Question

Read more: http://www.tmz.com/2009/07/20/larry-b-and-dannielynn-swingers/158#c22423578#ixzz0UJKQvILQ


I just do not understand how they obtained the computer through a transfer of the Seminole police, let it sit somewhere, then obtain warrants and affidavits signed after the fact. I, like HS, need to go back and reread, although the dates and reasoning didn't make sense.

Although the Judge has deemed photos (Dr Khris in tub, Dr. Kapoor) that MAYBE?? came off ANS computers not allowed, they were not 'not allowed' because of illegally obtaining, just relevance. I have no idea if that is due to just a preliminary and could still fight it before a trial?

Posted at 1:50PM on Oct 18th 2009 by Subpoenas & Cures